Publishing...Holy Crap!

[johnyamrus]

let's talk about subject matter. once again, i'm assuming that the people who will be reading this are people with aspirations of one day writing for print publication...aspirations beyond merely posting things on the internet.
the most common mistake wannabe writers make is assuming that anyone anywhere gives a shit about anything they have to say about themselves. i get tons of stuff sent to me and see tons of stuff by aspiring writers and the bulk of it is of the "woe is me" or "why did Tommy leave me?" type of poetry. that stuff's a dime a dozen and nobody cares to read it anyway because they just don't care about YOU feeling sad or happy or hurt or deserted. no, in order to gain someone's interest you've got to make your work relateable to the reader. cross over onto THEIR side of the street. let me give an example...Charles Bukowski spent his entire lifetime writing about himself...but he did it in such a way as to bring the reader into the poem. he shared the experience of his poetry with his readers. his great poem Blue Bird (which he wrote when he was 70something) is a perfect example of making things relateable...


blue bird



there's a bluebird in my heart that

wants to get out

but i'm too tough for him,

i say, stay in there, i'm not going

to let anybody see

you.



there's a bluebird in my heart that

wants to get out

but i pour whiskey on him and inhale

cigarette smoke

and the whores and the bartenders

and the grocery clerks

never know that

he's

in there.



there's a bluebird in my heart that

wants to get out

but i'm too tough for him,

i say,

stay down, do you want to mess

me up?

you want to screw up the

works?

you want to blow my book sales in

europe?



there's a bluebird in my heart that

wants to get out

but i'm too clever, i only let him out

at night sometimes

when everybody's asleep.

i say, i know that you're there,

so don't be

sad.



then i put him back,

but he's singing a little

in there, i haven't quite let him

die

and we sleep together like

that

with our

secret pact

and it's nice enough to

make a man

weep, but i don't

weep, do

you?



isn't that the most fantastic amazing poem ever? he's talking about all the hurt and heartbreak, but he's bringing the reader along with him. oh, and that's another thing...if you're really serious about writing for publication you've got to read and read and read some more. and don't give me that crap about "oh, i read poems on 5 internet sites already". that doesn't hold water because 99% of the people posting on the internet only do so because they have no other outlet for getting their work out there and don't have a clue about what real honest to god poetry is. aw, i'm getting cranky here and i shouldn't. all i'm trying to say is give your reader something to relate to. when you look in the mirror, make the reflection show your reader and not yourself.
john

[anirbas]

Really enjoy keeping up with this thread, when and as I get the chance.

So, agree about read, read, read and then read some more...It's like adding tools
to the toolbox in your head...I get lost in libraries and bookstores...Often
I'm reading two or more books at a time, as I want to read them both...

I read just about everything but romance novels...ICK! But, I do read poetry
on the internet, too...Mostly, just here...And find, especially at this site,
many of whom I read, whether published or not, should be...Just as good,
as what I get off the shelf, to add to my own little selection of poetry books...

Thanks for keeping this up for us, John...We don't mind if get cranky...As long as you
keep cranking out the tips, thoughts and advice...LOL...Nir.

[vixen]

John, don't quit this thread! I need to pick your brain. I never thought about publishing,never thought I was good enough. I do write every day, mostly for me to get crap out of my head,but sometimes in the wee hours of the morning I think I have something to say that people will understand, amke them laugh smile or just inspire them to have an opinion. I would love to publish, I have printed out this entire thread so I canread it more leisurely and get some of your advice into a plan. Please keeep this up Vixen

[johnyamrus]

i'm really glad this has been of some help to people. wasn't that Bukowski poem just the most amazing thing? he was in his 70s when he wrote that!
i'm right now at a loss for what to talk about...ask me some questions and let's get this thing kick-started. hey...there's an internet site that will be publishing a sort of interesting interview with me. as soon as it's up i'll put up a link here in case anyone's interested in checking it out.

john

[johnyamrus]

Here's that online interview with me. you'll have to copy/ppaste to read it...

www.poetrycircle.com/index.php/topic,2535.from1160062494/topicseen.html#msg8242

[vixen]

John, Shell, David, Sabrina, thanks for all your help. I do read, like Sabrina, I have 2 or 3 books going at one time excluding text books....yuk. Going to college part time, working full time and writing. Writing is my passion though, it would be a kick to get paid for it. I ordered Shella nd John's books. Am just asking for you to mail me your address so I can have you sign them. Shell if you need anything such as an American address, let me know, Sabrina let me know your address and I will order the books for you and send them to you. John I read the Bukowski poem and loved it. I did read about how you don't think certain types of poetry will sell cause its a dime a dozem. You may be right, but I do think that many of the poems that are of those type many people can relate to. I write to get demonds out sometimes, and some of that (though it may be trip) is what many peopole can relate to. I wrote a poem about rape once , have it on another poetry site and got many positive responses from it. In it I porposed that the rapist was also a victum, without getting on my soapbox many do not realize that. I think that poetry can inform, make you think,show you a different point of view, and if that is personal it may not always sell, but publisheing too make tons of money is not my total reason for publishing. Again all thanks. Gotta go to work to keep my spoiled dog in treats and the grandbabies in noisy toys.lol Vixen

[johnyamrus]

i agree with you that those personal poems serve a very definite purpose...i was just speaking from a PUBLISHING standpoint. if someone's writing just for personal gratification and satisfaction, that's totally fine and understandeable (did i spell that right?). but, for someone who wants to PUBLISH you've got to look at it from an editor's viewpoint (again, you've gotta put yourself in the other guys shoes. you've gotta relate)...editor's are looking for something DIFFERENT. they see those personal poems a thousand times a day. and i'm not exagerating (much) when i say that. back when i was editing my horribly little quarterly i used to get 20-30 envelopes containing poems a day. it was a real grind sometimes and if i opened a batch of stuff and it didn't grab me real quick i was already moving on to the next envelope. i think, Vixen, that you and i were just not on the same page, that's all.
again...what i'm writing here will never cover all the bases and is horribly inept and uninformative, but what i am writing is geared toward those on this site who hope to one day publish. gotta run.
john

[DavidMc]

Thanks once again John for running this thread. I really appreciate it. We are are a tiny group but as you will have noticed this thread has been read many times. Many will have been shy to post but they will have taken your excellent advice onboard.

David

[johnyamrus]

don't think i've stopped posting in this thread...just got a BAD cold and not feeling up to it.
back in a day or so. while i'm gone, if anyone has any questions, get 'em up and we'll discuss them later.
john

[johnyamrus]

well, it seems i've run dry of ideas...we talked about manuscripts...this sounds obvious, but people ask this all the time...when you send out a manuscript have the poems COMPLETE. don't send a work in progress or don't go hoping for an editor to sharpen something up for you.
be consistent and be industrious. if you send 4 or 5 poems to one magazine...don't just sit back and wait to hear from them. put 4 or 5 different poems in the mail to another magazine. (keep good records of where you've sent stuff and what you've sent) do something like that EVERY DAY and i guarantee you that before too long you'll have something in print somewhere. there's no secret to it. well, maybe there is...and i just shared it with you. just do something every day and you'll be fine.
and don't go taking shortcuts. there's plenty of print on demand publishers out there who will publish a book of your poems without you laying the foundation for a career in writing. without you building up a readership. if you skip the first steps and go straight to a POD publisher i can guarantee you that unless you're the greatest salesman in the world you're going to sell an embarassingly low number of copies, (and by that i mean 10 or 20, with most of those to family) and it'll be a waste of your time and more importantly it'll be a waste of your very good poems because nobody will get to read them. really, nobody will WANT to read them because nobody will have heard of you.
again, i know the first impulse is "i wanna do a book. i wanna do a book". just do yourself a favor and fight the impulse for a while. it'll pay off in the long run.
that's about it for me. i'm gonna go take more cold medicine, crawl back into bed and watch cartoons the rest of the day.
take care...
john

[shell]

ohhh bless ya John! I am keeping up with this, in between headaches and that can't-concentrate fog .. which means it looks like i have a relative of your cold pounding around my blood as well .. *grump-lol*

A huge thank-you to Vixen and Sabrina for supporting John and i through book buying!!

[vixen]

NO problem Shell, can't wait to get it. Another fellow here that has books out I believe is Nim. Will have to look into that. John and Shell are our best resourses here. Thanks to both of you. Also David is deserves a big thank you for asking them to share their expertise. Thanks one and all
Vixen

[DavidMc]

Well.......... Somewhere on some thread, I believe that Lauren (Liquid_Promise) has also published book(s)

Don't be shy Lauren .... spill the beans!

David

[anirbas]

I'd love to have a book, or books, on my nirlibrary shelf of poetry by any or all of you...

John, Shell, Lauren, Jeffrey...

I'm getting there...Buying one book at a time...As I get the chance and money...ggglgggl...
Have to support mini-me, first and foremost...hehehehehehehehehehehe...

And she tells me, books on her supperplate, don't appeal to her...LOL...

Take care, folks. Loving this let's talk about publishing thread you started, David.
And reading the comments of ALL the writers, published or otherwise, here in...
For those of us, not yet published, this is a gold mine of ideas and tips, that have
the authenticity, of having been done and found to work...Nir

[johnyamrus]

i think that unless anyone has any questions, or something pops into my mind, then i'm done with this thread for now...i just can't think of anything more to say. that could be because i've been doing these things for so long that they seem obvious to me...or, maybe i'm just too stupid to think of anything else to say. in any case, i'm out of ideas. maybe it's the cold medicine.
well, i was going to wait till something popped into my head, but figured that might take all night...so, i'll check in tomorrow and see if anyone came up with any questions.
best...
always...
john

[anirbas]

No questions at the moment...Just get well and be healed, John...Nir

[johnyamrus]

ah, i'm feeling just about 100% now...at least now i'm a lot closer to being my old cranky self...and that's just the way i like it.
now i've covered this particular subject earlier, but i've got to bring it up again. last night i rec'd an e-mail from someone who said to me (and i'm not quoting, but recalling) "i've never been published before, mostly because i don't have the money to be published". i honestly don't understand how people got the impression that the only way to get published is to pay to have it done. first off, that's the kiss of death...unless you're a great salesman, with a great marketing plan and fantastic organizational skills. if you're NOT a great salesman and don't have a great business plan and no organizational skills, but still have a lot of money that you don't mind putting into a doomed project, and only care about seeing your work in print and don't care a hoot if it ever makes money or even gets read by anyone other than your aunt minnie (the one with the bad breadth and the bottle of scotch under her apron)...then go for it. you'll have a blast.
see...again...people think that just being "published" is the end of the road. nope...that's only when the REAL work begins. why do you think old Tom Cruise is out schlepping his movies day after day? because he wants them to succeed. the same thing goes for a book of poetry. heck, why do you think i post my poems on various sites? it's because i want very much to find a wider audience for my books. it's because i want to make sure my books sell so i keep the publishers interested in me. it's certainly not because i like posting things. frankly, it's a pain in the ass...but it's a necessary evil. it's the poetic equivalent of Tom Cruise going on the Oprah Show.
well, that's about it for me for now. kathy told me that some time today i'd better get out and pull weeds in the yard. so, has anybody seen aunt minnie? think she'll share?

[johnyamrus]

300 reads. maybe this thread is working, after all!

[DavidMc]

Yeah and I know for a fact you've only read it 298 times!

To be serious for a minute ... and this is for everyone. Poetryseasons is an OPEN forum. Guests have full access to all the boards. Many boards make you Register and login before you can access a forum. This is not the case here.

So don't be deceived by the the number of members ... MANY MORE people out there are reading our work.

I will keep this open access policy in place until it starts to be abused. Hopefully this will not happen.

David

[johnyamrus]

i guess it's get real time here. is anyone other than david, shell, sabrina and vixen getting anything out of this? or, are my suspicions correct?
i always hear people saying "i want to publish"..."i want to publish"...but i'm thinking that once people read these posts and are confronted with the awful fact that it doesn't just materialise out of thin air...that it takes work, dilligence, organization and persistence to get published, get recognized for your writing and survive in a very very very competitive field. i think these posts might have been a glass of ice water in the face to a lot of people..."oh, do you mean i've got to do THAT to get published! i'm not going to do THAT. people will see how good my stuff is and i won't have to do any of that. i'm ABOVE all that! i'm a poet!"
listen...i'm totally...happily...more than willing to help and offer whatever advice and information and just plain encouragement that i can. but if i'm just flapping my gums in an empty room, save for four or five commited and interested individuals, then what's the point?
and please don't think i'm being crabby...well, maybe i am, but i'm also being realistic, and i'm not about to waste my time. so, for now, if anyone has any further questions, we can do it on a one to one basis and you can write me direct at [e-mail] and it'll spare me the embarassment of talking to myself like this.
take care...
john

[DavidMc]

Thanks again John, for all the effort you have put into this thread, my intuition is you have reached much further than you think.

You have sold a few books here and for that alone I am delighted!

I think your poetry is wonderful and deserves true recognicion.

You're right when you said none of your poems got POTD or whatever on other forums. I think that's because you challenge them to think differently.

We don't give POTD here because we welcome people who think differently.

Love, David

[johnyamrus]

david,
don't misconstrue what i'm saying...i'm not leaving the site...i'll still be posting poems...this is a great site. a fantastic site. i just think this particular conversation on publishing has run its course. and with you and vixen and shell and sabrina etc i'm preaching to the choir. beyond that i'm singing in an empty room.
i mean...you may be right...maybe we ARE reaching people beyond those very few who are making comments and asking questions and contributing to our common growth...but...how can i explain it? have you ever given a reading and people just sit on their hands and stare at you? total silence? it's not fun. and i don't feel like sharing with folks who aren't going to contribute. for you and shell and vixen and sabrina and the others...i'll bend over backwards to share any information you folks might need...but i'll do it on a one on one basis. maybe that's selfish of me, but i never said i was a nice guy.
i am what i am.
see you later!
john

[shell]

John - i think many people who write have such battered psyches that it can take awhile - if it ever happens - for them to think they "deserve" any kind of success in anything. Crumbs from the emotional table are gleaned as the Grail .. and in some ways that is fine ... i don't want ANYONE to take this as any kind of put-down - so anyone who might read this will NOT be allowed to "go there" (Shell's Law - oh, did i forget to mention that? It's a new addition to the Cosmic Handbook)

The amazing thing is that often what is said/done/thought has invisible effect - hence we should be careful what we wish for etc ... it may seem as though only a few are responding but i don't believe that is the case. Everyone is responding ... it just may not be in words ... or here. i can also feel many levels of confidence and exploration, or maybe even sheer adventure, peeping over the turrets and beginning to wonder "could i? should i?" To put it in perspective, the traumas that many endure and survive are probably much huger than getting published, it's just that we all (myself included) transfer every bad button pushed in life onto it. We have to stop doing that. "This" is something else.

I agree so much, John, with what you said about self-financed publishing. i know a most gorgeous poet who paid for her poetry to be published ... it is said that this is the kiss of death by way of credibility - it's all pomposity but then that is where academia still has its tentacles attached. They are being disengaged (ouch) slowly but their nefarious (is that the right word?) influences are still around. Like anything else, if you pay to publish yourself you still have to do the "stuff" to sell ... there is no difference there except that your bank balance is less to start with.

I do intend to follow up on the magazine writing ideas you have suggested. I am not blessed with comfortable finances and must give some belated attention to sorting that out. i cannot help but write, plus i do not CHOOSE to do otherwise - so despite my erratic-ness i will be following up on the brilliant advice you have offered.

This has little do do (directly) with your last, John - except to say ... no-one ever really thinks Honest folk are "nice" ... i prefer you Honest, don't EVER go "nice" on us ... LOL

I am going to dip into your books now! yeah!!!

[johnyamrus]

shell;
maybe you're right...in many instances.
i fought like hell with that woman who wanted to set up a "john yamrus fan site" on the internet. i told her she'd be wasting her time (still think she is)...that nobody in their right mind would want to ever visit the site. eventually, grudgingly, she won me over and i said okay. but with the request that she at least not refer to it in any way as a "fan" site. fans to me sound like crazy kids running around with autograph books in their hands. i asked that she at least refer to it as a reader site or a site for my readers...which she did.
and as for you and your book (which i hope everyone who reads this will go online right now and buy at www.barnesandnoble.com the book is: SOLO SONGS by Shell Heller and it's damn good), PublishAmerica contractually has got to keep that available for sale for a minimum of 7 years...that gives you plenty of time to figure out your own way of marketing it...whether it's building up a rep in the print mags or in bouncing around from internet site to internet site, making friends and sales one at a time...there's plenty of ways to get that thing sold and read and enjoyed. the thing is....the thing i've always been about is the poetry. most people just don't have a clue as to what's good. they throw a couple of hackneyed rhymes together and capitalize the first letter of each line and they pronounce it a poem. no, poetry...true poetry...is in seeing something more. in finding something deep in the well of your heart and yanking it out and holding it up to the light for all the world to see. it's about truth and beauty and sadness. it's about decadence and moral decay. it's about everything in the world. and nothing.
it's just poetry.
it's just life.
it just is...that's all.
john

[shell]

I enjoyed that last of yours ... what a lovely read in and of itself. I do keep trying to find something I might disagree with but darn it, I can't LOL

You must have read my mind or else we already agreed - again - *rolls eyes* - because I was thinking the same as regards the 7yrs PA will keep my book available. In the medium term future I WILL get out there and do the groundwork for proper flight.

There are things I wish to do yet that require more than subsistence level. Universe isn't going to give unless I give too .. (it's a team work thing, i believe) hence I am starting to re-enable myself .. look out, world! In the meantime I continue to build up a repertoire for the next book ... but always, always I write because .. I breathe.

As for good poetry, yes - again. Imitation of old styles and ways is fine for gaining confidence to get started but ultimately that isn't unique in any other way than changing the words ... I'm not a Shakespeare hater, far from it, but there are esteemed poets who have been iconised and I can't stand them - others want to be like them as a guarantee of success. It's irrelevant really, all of that, because that isn't the mainspring that gives rise to what I regard as Real.

Like music mulch (goodness, how bombastic do i sound today??) .. much can be successfully marketed, irrespective of its quality. Poetry doesn't have huge hands on the eyes and ears of everyone, like the music industry, who doesn't make an active choice to change channels.

People know only what they are told is good by those they either loathe or trust. Since this is usually played out in greeting cards or at school, exposure to poetry is pre-set. Limited. Except for that spark whispering "hang on a moment - there's got to be more"

This harks back to earlier posts in this thread. There's a lot of good stuff out there that may never be seen, and a lot of stuff that needn't be - except by those it directly relates to.

Any publishing has its shadows but individuals do still have to make it happen, more so perhaps with poetry than other creativity? What do others think about this? It's a confused para that if I was editing would probably vanish, but it still feels vaguely relevant.

Poetry (cooking, painting, singing), if it's any good, has universal heart and soul - and it knows itself.

[shell]

P.S. Where is your (not a fan) site again, John??

[johnyamrus]

she set it up a few weeks ago as:

www.myspace.com/johnyamrus

there's also one that i put up but really don't maintain much just because i'm lazy and really don't care much for websites and stuff...but it has a pretty neat and nearly complete list of all the magazines my work has appeared in over the years. there's also some interesting links there as well. that site is:

johnyamrus.tripod.com/

[johnyamrus]

if you go to MY site...not the "reader" site...you might get a kick out of the bibliography.

[DavidMc]

Hi John, I didn't 'misconstrue' anything...

I'm proud as a peacock that you posted this thread here!

David

[DavidMc]

the thing is....the thing i've always been about is the poetry. most people just don't have a clue as to what's good. they throw a couple of hackneyed rhymes together and capitalize the first letter of each line and they pronounce it a poem. no, poetry...true poetry...is in seeing something more. in finding something deep in

Whats good to you is bad to them. Don't fall into the trap of judgement. Self expression is just that!

David